Redefining success: Wellbeing, engagement, belonging

Denise Pope (00:01):

In fact, these three things, they correlate with academic mastery. That's the dirty little secret.

(00:12):

Welcome to School's In, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights in learning. From early education to lifelong development, we dive into trends, innovations, and challenges facing learners of all ages. I'm Denise Pope, senior lecturer at Stanford's Graduate School of Education and co-founder of Challenge Success.

Dan Schwartz (00:36):

And I'm Dan Schwartz. I'm the dean of the Graduate School of Education and the faculty director of the Stanford Accelerator for Learning.

Denise Pope (00:45):

Together, we bring you expert perspectives and conversations to help you stay curious, inspired, and informed.

Dan Schwartz (00:54):

Hi, Denise.

Denise Pope (00:56):

Hi, Dan.

Dan Schwartz (00:57):

So, that's a little switcheroo. We're doing some changes for the first episode of the season. You, my co-host, are actually gonna be the first person that we interview.

Denise Pope (01:07):

I'm excited. I'm- I'm very honored to be a guest.

Dan Schwartz (01:11):

Well, I'm very honored to have you as a partner. You know? So, for people who don't know, Denise is a senior lecturer, beloved senior lecturer, at the Graduate School of Education. She's doing, uh, research on AI in education and how teachers and students are responding to it. She's doing work on schools that are exceptionally successful at developing wellbeing. But today, we're gonna talk about her work on Challenge Success. So, Challenge Success, it partners with school communities to elevate student voice and implement research-based, equity-centered strategies to improve wellbeing and engagement for K-12 students. So, my peripatetic friend, are you ready?

Denise Pope (01:51):

(laughs) I am so ready. Very excited.

Dan Schwartz (01:54):

Okay. So, it's called, uh, Challenge Success. Why?

Denise Pope (02:00):

Oh, my goodness. Well, a couple of reasons. We came up with Challenge Success because we're challenging this very narrow notion of success. So, before I get into that, I wanna know, what do you think- what do you think that narrow notion of success is that we might be challenging with our title?

Dan Schwartz (02:17):

Hmm. The illusory dream that there's a single thing that will make everything better, which i- in this-

Denise Pope (02:22):

That's partially right.

Dan Schwartz (02:24):

... which in this case is probably college admissions.

Denise Pope (02:29):

Kind of. Yes. So, when I do talks all over the place for parents or teachers or students, my first question always to the audience is, "How do you define success?" And you're right, a lot of them will say college.

Dan Schwartz (02:42):

You didn't ask me how I would define success.

Denise Pope (02:45):

Dan, how do you define success?

Dan Schwartz (02:48):

Uh, after the fact. (laughs)

Denise Pope (02:49):

What? (laughs) Okay. Totally not fair.

Dan Schwartz (02:53):

If something works well, I say, "Boy, that was a success." (laughs)

Denise Pope (02:58):

(laughs)

(02:58):

Let's just take a guess. I'm asking a- a group of parents sitting in an audience at a school, "How do you define success for your child?" What do you think most of them say?

Dan Schwartz (03:07):

Uh, geez. That they're happy.

Denise Pope (03:08):

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Dan Schwartz (03:08):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (03:11):

That is the number one thing that adults will say. "I want my kid to be happy." Sometimes they'll say, "I want my kid to be healthy. I want them to give back to society. I want them to find a- a partner who's loving. I want them to be a good friend." All these, like, lovely things, right? And when I ask the students what they think their parents would say about defining success, the students say, "Get into a prestigious college. Make a lot of money. Get good grades." Right? Very, very different from what the parents say. So-

Dan Schwartz (03:48):

So, that's fascinating.

Denise Pope (03:48):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (03:51):

So, how- how do you explain that?

Denise Pope (03:53):

Well, what I... I usually do this exercise, and then I say to the parents, "Guess what? The kids are hearing this from all over, but partially from you. So let's talk about some of the things that you do that are messaging almost the exact opposite of what you're trying to do as a parent. Things like, the minute the kid ho- comes home from school, the first thing you ask is, 'How'd you do on the history test?' Hmm. That's sending a message that, like, the grade on a test is more important than 'How did you treat a friend today? How exciting was school? Did you do anything cool or creative?'" Right? So, we're- we're messaging- we're often messaging the wrong things about success.

(04:34):

And we also have... We do this other exercise that's really fun, which is, "How do you think your community defines success?" And for that, they're all ready to just, you know, slam the community as being so worried about these extrinsic, external things, like grades and popularity and money and college. And then I say, "Well, the kids kind of think that you believe it," right?

(04:56):

So, why are we called Challenge Success? We are challenging that really narrow notion of success, that "You have to do this, this, this, and this, and then poof, you're gonna be successful and happy." There's a quote from my book. One of the students that I shadowed said, "We don't go to school to learn. We go to get good grades, which brings us to college, which brings us a high-paying job, which brings us to happiness." So, it's, like, that really narrow, linear notion of success. And that if you get a bad grade, or you don't get into XYZ school, or you don't get that job, your life is over or you're gonna be poor or destitute or unhappy.

Dan Schwartz (05:34):

Okay. So, you've beat us down, Denise. What is the correct definition of success?

Denise Pope (05:39):

Well, I don't know that there's a correct definition. We do like people to think about what is best for them and their circumstances. But what we know from the literature is there are three pillars that pretty much we talk about all the time at Challenge Success and we measure and look at. And one is wellbeing. You have to be healthy enough to get outta bed in the morning and go to school. You ha- You can't be exhausted. You can't be completely anxious or depressed if you're going to be successful in school and out. So, wellbeing is one.

(06:08):

The second one is engagement. You want to like what you're doing. You wanna be interested in it. You wanna think that what you're doing has meaning and value in your life.

(06:18):

And the third is belonging, which is, you need to feel like you have someone who has your back, that you feel known, that you feel safe, that you feel like you're part of a community. And that forms a little acronym, wellbeing, engagement, belonging, called WEB. And that's how you remember it.

Dan Schwartz (06:33):

Okay. I like WEB better than SOS.

Denise Pope (06:36):

Yeah. (laughs) So do I.

Dan Schwartz (06:37):

Uh. So, when I think of success, uh, and I'm thinking about my kids, I think of very long-term goals. Whereas these are all really proximal. It's like, uh, wellbeing right now, engagement right now, belonging right now. Right? So, it's kind of a different framing of success, or these are enablers of some future goal of success that I may not know what it is?

Denise Pope (07:00):

Right. They're foundational. Right? And- and if you think, you know, back to Maslow's hierarchy, right, the bottom is safety. Uh. You can't get to enlightenment until you have safety and belonging. Um, so we- we... You gotta start out, like, with the basics. If you're exhausted, it's not gonna work now or later. Right?

Dan Schwartz (07:20):

Okay. But there, it- it- it should be called challenge enabling success.

Denise Pope (07:26):

Yeah. (laughs)

Dan Schwartz (07:28):

Or something.

Denise Pope (07:28):

Okay, that's just not as catchy.

Dan Schwartz (07:29):

(laughs) Okay. Okay.

Denise Pope (07:29):

(laughs)

Dan Schwartz (07:31):

So, how- how'd you come up with these three? Right? And, you know, good- good grades. Uh, self-efficacy could have been one. You feel like you're- you're competent, things like that.

Denise Pope (07:42):

Absolutely. So, what- what we've done for years and years, we've- we've been around for over 20 years now, is we've given these surveys and we've done quantitative surveys and we've also collected qualitative research. And we've done this now for, you know, 15-20 years. The survey started a little bit after we got started. 350,000 middle school and high school students, 500 different schools, public, private, charter, you name it. And-

Dan Schwartz (08:07):

Geez. Do you feel... Do you feel guilty about all the time you've taken from the 350,000 kids to fill out your survey?

Denise Pope (08:15):

(laughs)

Dan Schwartz (08:15):

That's a lot of survey hours. (laughs)

Denise Pope (08:17):

Here's what we say. Here's what we say to the students. "If you do this, we promise we will not only get the results back to your school but you will know the results as well and you will be able to use these results to make change." So, we're finding out how exhausted are you. Let me tell you, kids are exhausted. Over 90% of our sample qualifies as sleep-deprived. Our average amount of sleep is 6.8 hours a night. And the average teen needs between 8 and 10 hours a night. We've got a huge group just getting 4 or 5 hours a night. So, wellbeing is more than just sleep. There's... 80% are experiencing self-reported chronic stress, um, headaches, ulcers, difficulty falling asleep.

Dan Schwartz (09:02):

So, you ask 'em questions like, "Do you have headaches?" Is that how you- you find-

Denise Pope (09:06):

We'll- we'll say, "In the past month, how often have you experienced the following symptoms?" And we'll ask them about their top sources of stress, which, interesting is grades, tests, assessments, homework, workload. Right? It's not romantic involvement, it's not sick parent, it's not parents getting divorced. The top one as a- as a severe source of stress that kids say is always about load and grades and tests.

Dan Schwartz (09:34):

Wow.

Denise Pope (09:34):

Because this is their world.

Dan Schwartz (09:35):

Wow.

Denise Pope (09:36):

Um, and- and so that's... So, on the wellbeing side, we know that there's issues. On the engagement side, we also know there's issues. Uh, over half of them are basically not engaged. They're just going through the motions, what we call doing school. And we- we don't ask them, "Are you engaged in school?" We ask them lots of different questions that get at this concept of engagement.

Dan Schwartz (10:01):

Examples of a question?

Denise Pope (10:03):

Yeah. So, in- in the engagement world, we kind of look at engagement in three parts. And it's... Uh, I call it the ABCs of engagement. The A is affective. So, are you enjoying it? Are you interested in it? Right? The B is behavioral. Are you doing it? Are you putting in effort? And the C is cognitive engagement. Do you find it meaningful? Do you think what you're doing is helping to build your skills? Um. Do you see purpose in your learning? And so, we have questions on the A, the B, and the C.

Dan Schwartz (10:30):

So, how do you... Do you ask the question in algebra class as opposed to, like, when they- when they're in their- their, uh, project-based class?

Denise Pope (10:39):

Totally. You can- you can find out about engagement in different classes. You can find out about engagement in different parts of a class, right?

Dan Schwartz (10:47):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Denise Pope (10:47):

"When are you most- when are you most excited about what you learn?" A lot of times they'll say, "When I'm with my friends, when the teacher's excited, when I'm interested in the topic," right? We've- we've got- we've got crazy data.

Dan Schwartz (10:58):

Sure. Sure. No.

Denise Pope (11:00):

(laughs) So, yeah. So, for engagement, I mean, what's kind of crazy is 10%, now think of that sample size, 350,000, 10% are disengaged. They're not enjoying it, interested in it. They don't think it's valuable or meaningful. And they're not doing it. That's a lot of kids. And 50%-

Dan Schwartz (11:15):

You said 10- you said 10%? 10%-

Denise Pope (11:15):

10%.

Dan Schwartz (11:18):

... are completely disengaged?

Denise Pope (11:19):

Completely disengaged.

Dan Schwartz (11:21):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (11:21):

And then, 50% are just what we call doing school. They're behaviorally engaged. They're doing the work. But they don't enjoy it. They don't like it. They're not interested in it. And they don't think it's valuable or meaningful to what they do. So we call them, like, little robo students. They're just kind of going through the motion.

Dan Schwartz (11:36):

So, I'm- I'm a parent, and I hear this, and I say, "Yeah, my school experience was like that and I turned out just fine."

Denise Pope (11:44):

Mm. Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (11:46):

Right? So, this is part of doing- part of school is you just gotta do it. You gotta memorize that poetry that you're never gonna use.

Denise Pope (11:52):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (11:52):

That's just part of the deal.

Denise Pope (11:54):

Take your medicine.

Dan Schwartz (11:55):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (11:55):

Shut up and take your medicine.

Dan Schwartz (11:57):

So, but, you know, this... I mean, this drives me nuts. I- When I suggest that we could change education, the number one response is, "I went to school just like that and I turned out fine."

Denise Pope (12:05):

Right. So, I have-

Dan Schwartz (12:06):

So...

Denise Pope (12:07):

... a couple of different ways of responding to that parent who have definitely come up to me and said this-

Dan Schwartz (12:10):

Yes, I imagine.

Denise Pope (12:12):

Okay. So, one is, would you go to your cardiologist and say, "You know what? I don't- I don't like this newfangled stuff that you're talking about. Just let's go back to leeches. Let's go back to the old days-"

Dan Schwartz (12:24):

(laughs)

Denise Pope (12:24):

"... Don't give me the new stuff." Right? No one's gonna question the newer procedures of a medicine professional. But because everyone's been to school, been through school, and think that the way they went through it is right, and- and they blame their success, or they- they give credit to their success for that, um, they feel like they can question our field. They also don't know that we are a field and we study this, and we put people in MRI machines and watch what parts of their brain light up when they're doing problems. Like, we actually are evolving (laughs) and school should not look like when you, sir, went to school. And I say that with, like, great respect to the-

Dan Schwartz (13:04):

But- but- but- but, Dr. Pope, I turned out fine.

Denise Pope (13:07):

You did-

Dan Schwartz (13:08):

Ev- even- even the leeches worked. (laughs)

Denise Pope (13:11):

Yes. The- the- the- the leeches worked. But if I told you that we could do it in a way that you also didn't have to hate it, that you didn't have to suffer, that you didn't have to be bullied, that you didn't have to feel isolated, that you actually could learn in a way that would help you remember not just the words of the poem disembodied but why you use it and why we need to study the humanities and get you excited. See, the bigger problem now is we are having a lot of issues with attendance.

Dan Schwartz (13:36):

Hmm.

Denise Pope (13:36):

We have kids who don't wanna come to school, who are dropping out of school. We have kids who are really suffering in school. So this n- not just feeling like they don't belong, which is about a third of our sample, but we have kids, particularly students of color and gender diverse students, who are actively feeling bullied. So, they don't wanna go to school. It's- it's- it's not just a neutral. It's actually a place that's hurting them.

Dan Schwartz (14:02):

Yeah, yeah. So, uh, let- let's... We've- we've done wellbeing and that- that's, uh, sleep, stress. We've done engagement. Like, are you actually minds on or are you just going through the motions or just not showing up? And then belonging? What i- What is belonging?

Denise Pope (14:20):

Yeah. So, we have lots of different questions on this. So, we have one set of questions that ask, "Is there an adult at the school, any adult, that you feel you could go to if you had a problem?" So, we're looking at student-teacher relationships, which we know is- are really key to school success. And the average that we have is about 70% of the students feel like they have an adult to go to. If you're a glass-is-half-full kind of person, you might think, "Well, that's not bad." But this is a school. We ask them any adult at the school, right? It should be 99.9%. Um, and I've had to report back to schools as low as 50-56% of the kids feel like they have an adult to go to.

Dan Schwartz (14:59):

Wow.

Denise Pope (15:00):

We ask them, "Do they have at least one buddy that they feel they can go to with a problem?" That's usually higher. That's usually in the 80 percentile. And then we also ask a lot of questions like, "People here respect me for who I am," or, "I feel like I can really be myself at this school." So, a typical belonging scale. And about 33% of them are feeling like they don't really belong, at least in some of their classes or in some of the places at school.

Dan Schwartz (15:26):

So, uh, that's painful.

Denise Pope (15:29):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (15:30):

Tough to spend all day at a place where you're sleepy, you're not really engaged, and there's no reason that you wanna be there because nobody else really cares about you.

Denise Pope (15:39):

Very depressing.

Dan Schwartz (15:40):

That's horrible. My God. What's happened to our school system, Denise? I now understand what the challenge is. Like, you- you've been doing these surveys a long time. Has there ever been a period where they're going in the right direction? Or are we just slowly rolling into a dark, dismal high school with dirty bathrooms and snotty kids around corners?

Denise Pope (16:02):

So, some of the things have been very stable.

Dan Schwartz (16:04):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (16:04):

We- we did a report for the U.S. Surgeon General, looking at- longitudinally at the data. And some of the things have been very stable, like sleep, right?

Dan Schwartz (16:13):

Mm-hmm.

Denise Pope (16:13):

They've always been sleep-deprived. They will continue to be sleep-deprived. Part of that is just the institution of school itself. It starts too early for these nocturnal adolescent brains that really have different circadian rhythms than the rest of the world. And we work on that, right? We- we-

Dan Schwartz (16:28):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (16:28):

... ask them to change start times. We ask them to change bus schedules, et cetera. So, part of that isn't surprising that that's been sort of a straight line, almost longitudinally. We do see a change after the pandemic, that engagement numbers got even lower, and they're starting to creep back up again. That gives me some hope. Yes, the pandemic was a really tough time for kids, and schools were closed. It's really hard to get someone engaged through a screen, right? We're starting to see engagement numbers tick up again, um, slightly,

Dan Schwartz (16:59):

But not through a podcast. All you out there in the audience, thank you for being engaged.

Denise Pope (17:03):

(laughs) Yes. Oh, my gosh. You- you're listening and you're-

Dan Schwartz (17:06):

(laughs)

Denise Pope (17:06):

... driving your truck and you're just loving us. (laughs)

Dan Schwartz (17:11):

Okay. Uh, belonging. So, belonging is kind of a new construct. You know, we didn't use to talk about belonging 10-15 years ago.

Denise Pope (17:18):

Right. There's more f- I mean, even folks here at Stanford who study it very, very in depth know it's important. We're looking at it and trying to help find ways to- to do it, even little ways. Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (17:30):

But no, the- the question is- is, uh, are people feeling more alienated than they used to be?

Denise Pope (17:35):

Um-

Dan Schwartz (17:37):

So it's less belonging.

Denise Pope (17:38):

Certain groups are.

Dan Schwartz (17:39):

Mm-hmm.

(17:39):

Marginalized groups.

Denise Pope (17:42):

Marginalized groups are. So- some traditionally marginalized groups have felt this all along. Students of color, traditionally, um, students who identify as female. We're seeing a new- a newer group or a larger group, I should say. They've always been traditionally marginalized, but gender diverse students, uh, more and more are reporting much lower scores than the rest of the kids.

Dan Schwartz (18:10):

Okay. We- we've hit rock bottom. We know the challenge. Now it's time to figure out how we can do something about it. Do you want to take all three webs at once? Or you wanna pick 'em off one at a time? Uh, are you, like, setting up therapy sessions for children? Like, how- how do you do this?

Denise Pope (18:29):

Well, there's a lot of different ways to do it, but the way that Challenge Success does it is we work with the school and the school policies and practices. So we're trying to change things at the school level, whereas other people might come in and do individual work with kids and counseling and try to get more, um, you know, money for healthcare and-

Dan Schwartz (18:50):

Right. So-

Denise Pope (18:50):

... all that kind of stuff.

Dan Schwartz (18:51):

So, a later start time would be a school-level action.

Denise Pope (18:55):

Exactly. A later start time.

Dan Schwartz (18:57):

Engagement. Like, how do you do that at the school level? You- you throw a candy in the middle of class, like-

Denise Pope (19:02):

Yeah, no, we- we- we try not to just bribe students to learn. Uh-

Dan Schwartz (19:06):

Okay. (laughs) I like it. Bribing to learn. I mean... (laughs) Somebody needs to write a chapter on that.

Denise Pope (19:11):

Yeah, I know, bribing. You might like that, Dan. No. Um, we... And so what we know from research is there's lots of ways to engage kids in classes. And how you do it is interactive learning, small group work, some of the stuff that you've studied, Dan, right? Gamification, bringing in, uh, outside technology that's exciting and also helping them think, right? Not just standing up in front of the class, giving a lecture or saying, "Open the textbook, turn to page three and then answer these questions."

Dan Schwartz (19:43):

So, trying to make, uh, the educational experience more interactive. Is that kind of the-

Denise Pope (19:48):

More- more interactive, giving students... We have a little mantra called voice, choice, revision, and redemption. Voice means they want it to be about what interests them, right? So personalize it, bring it, and help them understand why they need to learn this in the first place and how it relates to their lives immediately and also in the future, right? Choice is giving little baby choices here and there, like a couple math problems from this section, a couple math problems from this section, instead of slogging through all 60. That would be a little example. Revision is... How many of us just take a test and then get the grade and then you move on to the next unit? Like, the- there's not learning happening there. We've had shows on this about assessment. So, revision is giving them the opportunity to reflect on what they've learned, revise the test, the paper, the project, whatever, with feedback and scaffolding. That's more how people work in the real world.

Dan Schwartz (20:40):

What, I get peer review and they want me to revise. It's, like, the least engaging thing on earth.

Denise Pope (20:44):

No-

Dan Schwartz (20:44):

Or is it...

Denise Pope (20:45):

... well, but- yes, but do you... We want you to learn, right? So, your peer review is probably not engaging, but giving a kid a second chance on a test or a quiz or on a paper is huge-

Dan Schwartz (20:55):

Oh, I see. I see.

Denise Pope (20:56):

... is huge for that kid. It reduces stress, right? It-

Dan Schwartz (21:00):

I see. Yeah, yeah.

Denise Pope (21:00):

... gets you more, like, "Oh, okay, I get it." And then here's the redemption part that you'll like. In the world of school, you might never turn in your homework, but you've got good grades on your tests and quizzes. Doesn't matter. You have all those zeros on your transcript, it's gonna add in and you're not be able to redeem yourself. You're not gonna be able to get to that grade or that thing that you want, right? So, we want voice, choice, revision, and redemption. We want kids to be able to redeem themselves. Maybe you eliminate zeros. Maybe you don't grade homework. If the kid- especially if the kid's doing well on the test. Maybe you rethink your policies around assessment. So, we work, uh, in certain categories around schedule, pedagogy, assessment, SPA, climate of care, C, and then the E is educating parents. So, that spells out SPACE.

Dan Schwartz (21:50):

So, how about, uh, how about belonging? Like, uh, how do you make people be nicer?

Denise Pope (21:57):

It's not so much being nicer. (laughs)

Dan Schwartz (21:58):

Well, to- to make a context where I- I can belong, the people around me have to be kind of nice, don't they?

Denise Pope (22:05):

Well, they have to accept you for who you are.

Dan Schwartz (22:07):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (22:08):

And- and you have to feel it. You have to... You can't just say, "Poof, someone's gonna be nice to me." You have to feel like you belong. You have to feel that you're a valued member of the community. And it's actually easier- easier to do than you would think. We just have to help teachers remember why they're teaching in the first place, right? It's about the kids. It's about the relationships. So, in a busy world where you've got, like, you know, eight classes of kids coming in every day, can you get to know the kids more as individuals? Can you set up advisory periods where there's one adult and a handful of kids and you get to know each other and you move through all four years with them, let's say? Can you, um, greet them at the door? Can you show-

Dan Schwartz (22:48):

Yeah, I know- I know this one. So, there- there was-

Denise Pope (22:50):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (22:51):

Yeah. I was a substitute for a while in Los Angeles. And, you know, you get a phone call at 5:00 AM that you have to go, like, two hours away. And I learned, stand at the door and greet each kid and look in their eyes.

Denise Pope (23:02):

Right.

Dan Schwartz (23:03):

You know, and then you'll... You can talk to 'em later. Otherwise-

Denise Pope (23:06):

Sh- Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (23:06):

... they- they're sort of alienated and...

Denise Pope (23:09):

Show that you care. Even things like moving the test on a day that when they're not ready to take it... Like, the students really appreciate you dialing in and understanding what they're going through. So, we have teachers shadow students from bus stop all the way through all the classes, and real- and then, you know, go home and attempt to do the homework. We have all sorts of exercises that we ask people to do. We have an I-wish campaign. "I wish my teachers knew."

Dan Schwartz (23:35):

Denise.

Denise Pope (23:36):

We got lots of ways to build belonging.

Dan Schwartz (23:37):

So, your solutions are interesting. They're not like, "Blow up the system," right? So, a lot of people who wanna fix schools say, "We need to build school a brand new way." Yours is more, uh, "These schools are here. They're giant enterprises, you know, these urban districts. Billions and billions of dollars. Uh, we can go in and do, you know, things that are executable within the system that you've got." I mean, some are tough, like changing the bus schedule a bit, but...

Denise Pope (24:04):

Well, some things that I think are easy or not, and some things that I think are tough are easy-

Dan Schwartz (24:08):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (24:08):

It depends on the school. But I would say it doesn't make sense to blow up a system when we are the second-biggest (laughs) system next to healthcare in the United States.

Dan Schwartz (24:18):

Right.

Denise Pope (24:18):

Right? Like-

Dan Schwartz (24:18):

Right.

Denise Pope (24:19):

... I would love to blow up some things. And I have some examples of schools that have been blown up and are doing great. But it's just not realistic on a scale level.

Dan Schwartz (24:28):

Yeah.

Denise Pope (24:29):

Whereas these changes, hopefully, are.

Dan Schwartz (24:34):

You know, I- I see that- that you could- a lot of them you could implement. They- it's- it's- they're just not- not huge. I think that testing thing may be tough, but... So- so, I'm a parent and, uh, my kid's not sleeping enough. I'm worried he's not- he's sort of just doing school and, I don't know, he sort of belongs. But then sometimes... And so, what do I do? Do I call up this- the school principal and say, you know, "WEB. Implement WEB"?

Denise Pope (25:01):

(laughs)

Dan Schwartz (25:01):

Like, what- what do I do?

Denise Pope (25:02):

I don't think that's gonna get you that far. The person might think you're kind of a loony tune if you just call up and say WEB.

Dan Schwartz (25:07):

(laughs) [inaudible 00:25:08].

Denise Pope (25:07):

Um. There's lots of things you can do at home. Um, right? So much of what we think is out of our control because our kids are in school for so many hours a day. If you really look at the whole schedule, you do have a lot of control over what happens to your child from, you know, 3:00 PM to 7:00 AM, right? So, sleep is a huge thing. How you talk about school is a huge thing, right? Are you only worried about grades? Are you only messaging that you're worried about grades? Are you only talking about college? Are you... Are you obsessed with, um, the status of other people's kids getting, you know, awards and accolades? And the way you talk about learning with your kid, it actually is really important. So, just a quick another mantra. I'm, like, big on mantras today. It's not what you earn, it's what you learn. So, as a parent-

Dan Schwartz (26:01):

(laughs) Nice.

Denise Pope (26:02):

... you kind of say, "Okay." Right? Like-

Dan Schwartz (26:04):

Nice. And-

Denise Pope (26:05):

... "Hey mom, you know, I got a B-." The parent can, like, go crazy. Or you can say, "Hey, let's look at this. What'd you learn from this?"

Dan Schwartz (26:11):

So, Denise, could- could you make some bumper stickers?

Denise Pope (26:14):

(laughs).

Dan Schwartz (26:14):

Like, I could- I- I- I'd like- No, I ha- I- I have meetings with faculty and they talk about, uh, what success out of college looks like.

Denise Pope (26:23):

Mm.

Dan Schwartz (26:23):

And and they often talk about money. And I'm just sort of like, "Well, you know, I was a philosophy major. I'm deeper than you are. That's my- that's my success out of it." So-

Denise Pope (26:31):

I mean, but you could be joking, but, like, what they're saying now, there... We know that the correlation between happiness and earnings, there's a plateau after your basic needs are fulfilled, right?

Dan Schwartz (26:43):

Yeah. Yeah. No, there's quiet... Everybody has quiet desperation. But, uh, no, that- that's interesting. It- it is... How about me sort of s- trying to get the school to do something?

Denise Pope (26:56):

Well, we would love that.

Dan Schwartz (26:57):

Does that work? Or...

Denise Pope (26:58):

What we say to parents is, "If you're noticing a lot of stress at home, if you're noticing homework overload, and it's a battle, if you're noticing that your kid really doesn't wanna go to school, you actually- we do want you to reach out to someone at the school, whether that's a teacher, whether that's a counselor, probably not the principal as a first move." But the school has no way of knowing what your at-home life looks a- like, right?

Dan Schwartz (27:23):

Right.

Denise Pope (27:23):

So they... If they need to know and you need to bring them into the equation, and then together you can find a solution.

Dan Schwartz (27:30):

Oh, I like that. I like that. Yeah. Just, uh, give them a heads-up.

Denise Pope (27:33):

Mm-hmm.

Dan Schwartz (27:34):

Okay. Well, thank you, Denise, for sitting in the hot seat today. I hope you liked the turnaround.

Denise Pope (27:39):

Oh, my gosh. I did. I did. But, Dan, can I put you a little bit in the hot seat? Usually, I say, "Dan, as always, what are some takeaways?" So, now I think it's only fair, Dan, as always, what are some takeaways that you heard from me?

Dan Schwartz (27:57):

Oh, that Denise Pope rocks.

Denise Pope (28:01):

(laughs)

Dan Schwartz (28:01):

This is... This i-

Denise Pope (28:01):

Oh, I like that takeaway.

Dan Schwartz (28:02):

Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, uh, everybody wants what you're describing, you know, kids with wellbeing, kids that are engaged, kids who feel like they belong. And, uh, I- I think you- you sort of let the significance of that fade into the background as you're trying to solve all these other things, like getting the kid outta school on time, or there's this one problem they didn't get. So, kind of bring it to the forefront and reminding people this- these are just, like, things that you want for your child or that your child wants, or as a teacher, this is what you want. Uh, I think that's a big deal. And then sort of saying, "And you know what, it's- it's not that hard to get a lot of these things." I like the WEB. I like the three things. Everybody wants 'em, you know, but we forget about it 'cause so much else is going on. How about you, Denise? What are your takeaways, as Dan-

Denise Pope (28:54):

Yeah.

Dan Schwartz (28:54):

... as a podcasting host?

Denise Pope (28:56):

You did a great job, first of all-

Dan Schwartz (28:57):

Thank you, Denise.

Denise Pope (28:57):

I really... No, I me- I mean it. And great job on the takeaways because that really... I mean, we- we're trying to get people to kind of step- step back and, like, look at the big picture. In the grand scheme, you're not gonna remember your kid's grade of C+ in the math class, and it's not gonna affect their life-

Dan Schwartz (29:15):

Uh-huh, yes.

Denise Pope (29:16):

So, oh, do you-

Dan Schwartz (29:17):

I-

Denise Pope (29:17):

... do you think you... Do you remember... You probably remember your worst grades. But foundationally, in the big picture, in the grand scheme-

Dan Schwartz (29:25):

I know.

Denise Pope (29:25):

... you want someone to be healthy. You want someone to feel like they belong to a community. And you want them to be kind of excited about the- what they do every day.

Dan Schwartz (29:31):

Right. And then it doesn't displace learning. It helps it. It's- it's- you're not-

Denise Pope (29:35):

Uh, 100%.

Dan Schwartz (29:36):

... you're not- you're not, like, spoiling the kid by not having them learn.

Denise Pope (29:39):

No. In fact, these three things, wellbeing, engagement, and belonging, they correlate with academic mastery. That's the dirty little secret.

Dan Schwartz (29:49):

Well, so, Denise, thank you. And thank all of you for joining this episode of School's In. Be sure to subscribe to the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you tune in. I'm Dan Schwartz.

Denise Pope (30:03):

And I'm Denise Pope.